81 Contemplating Rocks in Our Food From:   Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com Subject: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 15, 2004 12:14:35 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info All,         If, as Tom claims, wine is food (which I slightly disagree with because wine is more overtly ceremonial) then we truly have rocks in our food.  In large part soil is decomposed rock, where wine is concerned.         After reading many wine reviews, articles, etc. that mention soil/terrior in what I consider completely meaningless ways the geologist in me wrote Wine Spectator editors with a challenge -- If soil type has such a direct relationship with wine characteristics then you should be able to make definitive correlations between common flavors, structures and overall quality that come from grapes grown in the same/similar soil types on different continents or the other side of the valley.  Can you?  If not, in spite the history and depth of viticulture research, is it safe to say that the reverence given to the soil grapes are grown in is undeserved?  I suggested an article on the subject since they couldn’t answer all my questions in a short response.         Believe it or not, my letter to WS rambled more than the above paragraph.  Anyway, in case anyone else out there views the soil/wine relationship as abstract and arbitrary WS finally answered my letter in an article in the current Top 100 issue.  Although I can’t prove this article came from my letter alone, I’ll claim credit until someone knocks me off my mountain.  The article is interesting, if shorter than I would have liked.  It answers most of my questions, while leaving enough wriggle room for debate to continue.  Search out, read, enjoy... if piqued. -J Sometimes a Great Notion Josh Cohn ph 520-794-1176 fax 520-794-2077 Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com From:   Mkingston9@aol.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 15, 2004 5:40:38 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Well, Josh, I am going to rush to the most recent copy of the Wine Spectator and find this article.  Many years ago I participated in a terrific field trip around the Black Forest and Kaiserstuhl in southern Germany.  After a few days of our hard work, much of which was conducted in view of Vineyards we were entertained, as is usual for Geologists, with a farewell feast.  We kicked off this party with a tasting of the local wines.  It was a blind tasting in that we had to discriminate between wines that were the same vintage, same grape, same south facing slope or whatever.  The only difference was the soil/terroir (volcanic or loess) on which these grapes were grown.  And we found that not only the taste was distinctive for each soil type, the color was also.  I haven’t yet read the article but suspect that pH and trace elements in these soils are very important contributors to the taste and color differences. Thanks for bringing up this topic. Cheers Margo From:   Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 16, 2004 9:59:22 AM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Margo,         I am both jealous and impressed with your German wine experience and your first-hand “soil tasting,” as it were.  German wines are my Alaska,the final frontier.  And I’m sure that such a controlled tasting designed to isolate the effect of soil on wine would move me more to the terrior side from where I currently stand.  Sometimes, I think it’s the old nature vs. nurture debate. -Josh From:   drwo@woteki.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 16, 2004 8:25:32 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Security: Signed Lots of interesting ideas here, what to say...? Yes, I suppose I claim, as in “assert to be true” that wine is food. It is for me anyway.... most of the time. Sometimes it’s just something in my glass. But those aren’t very interesting times. The term “terroir” is not synonymous with “soil”, which is suggested by your punctuation if nothing else. The term refers to the entire natural environment of a viticultural site. That certainly includes the site’s climate and topography, as well as its soil and, arguably I claim, the people who grow it and their culture. By that definition, can any 2 terroirs be “the same”? I think one can correlate “common flavors, structures,...” from the same grapes grown in different locations. I’m sure you can detect similarities (and differences) between a French burgundy and an Oregon pinot noir (when you know that’s what you’re being served). But that may have less to do with soil and more to do with being the same grape -- and knowing what’s in the glass. I’ve had the pleasure of tasting the same grape from 2 sites or hillsides in the same vineyard; different clones of the same grape from the very same site; wine made from a single lot of grapes from a single site made by 3 different winemakers; and on and on. What I can detect about the wines I’ve tasted on those occasions has depended on the time of day, whether I’m having food, the wines’ terroirs, and maybe most important how much I was told about what I was tasting at the time. From:   Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 11:41:34 AM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Tom,         First, I had never considered a human factor to terrior.  That’s fascinating.  Second, I do not mean to say that just because it is currently difficult to trick the effects of soil/terrior (dirt, rocks, slope) out of wine that there is no effect or that any effect is insignificant.  Quite possibly, the best argument for terrior is, the proof’s in the pudding.  This seems to be Spectator’s general conclusion as well.         My immediate reaction to an all encompassing definition of terrior:  While climate is relatively stable, weather certainly is not.  Winemaking teams change, as do wine makers’ experience, as does technology and culture.  My notion of terrior is something fixed and lasting.  Or else why would France be able benchmark the word champagne?  Including culture and winemaking teams into terrior incorporates, shall we say, a certain je ne sais quoi into the equation for making good wine.  And this brings me back to my original problem with soil and terrior, too often it is too arbitrary.         Now, I think we are on the same page with regards to the significant, yet not necessarily negative effect that the power of suggestion has on tasting wine.  There was a famous experiment where professional wine tasters were tricked into confusing wine from a Bordeaux first growth and an unclassified estate because the people leading the tasting purposely misrepresented the wines.         Finally, on the subject of whether any terrior can be exactly duplicated, the answer is certainly no if you include human factors.  Sans the human factor, natural ecosystems are still so incredibly complex that I doubt an exact terrior could be found in multiple sites.  However, I have done geological field work in a dozen states plus Mexico and I have seen very, very similar physical expressions of rock, structures, soil, vegetation, etc in disparate geographical locales.  So, I would assume that near identical twins exist in the wine world (excepting the human factor) if one were to look.         Yada, yada, yada; I’ve pontificated enough.  What’s important is enjoying wine.  This is just sweating the details.  Cheers. -J From:   leslie.borden@comcast.net Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 3:09:28 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info I’ve been watching this exchange for awhile and not getting into it, since wine is not my game, but it started putting me in mine of food, which  most definitely is my game, so here are some thoughts: 1.         It’s terrOIr, not terrIOr – the land, not the small, yappy but misspelled dog.  Sorry, I couldn’t stand it. 2.         Re the power of suggestion on tasting wine, there was a terrific article on the subject in Gourmet magazine last summer, August, I think, or maybe July.  They started with the Riedel crystal people, who are still, for their own nefarious and commercial purposes, fomenting the “palate map” concept of the tongue, such that only THEIR glasses, specially constructed to deliver each kind of wine (pinot noir, chardonnay, sauvignon blanc, etc.) to exactly the right spot on your tongue.  Without their crystal, they assert, you might as well drink, say, Kool-Aid or something.  The article debunks that canard but then goes on to a very interesting discussion of perception in wine tasting, including the effect of watching others’ reactions to wine, how much the taster is told the wine cost, etc.  The writer ends by saying that fine crystal is in the perception category and will help you enjoy your wine as an esthetic experience, but not as a scientific one.  Good article, and an example of how Ruth Reichl has expanded and grown the mag. 3.         Whether terroir can be duplicated, and here’s where I get into my food game:  Seems to me it’s like the Italian DOP (denominazione origine protetta) or French AOC (appellation d’origine controllee) concept, where the food or wine is produced entirely within the area in question, at least in order to be able to be called by its name.  As an example, parmigiano-reggiano cheese not only must be made entirely within the DOP, which is parts of Parma and Reggio (duh, sorry), but also the cows from which it comes must live there and be fed only food grown there.  It’s an example of the essential integrity of Italian food that I love.  And wait, there’s more:  the pigs from which prosciutto di Parma is made, and which has it’s own, overlapping, DOP, are fed the whey left over from the P-R cheesemaking.  A case of real vertical integration, for the business types out there.  Not only will the same kind of food produced elsewhere be different (maybe not better or worse, but different, not the DOP product), but my sense also is that food tastes better in or near its own DOP, for a couple of reasons:  first, of course, it hasn’t been subjected to the rigors of transportation and handling; second, at least in the case of P-R cheese, prosciutto di Parma, and a rarer Italian ham called culatello, yep, another DOP, they just don’t send the good stuff out of the area.  Third, well, how cool is it to be within a few miles or acres or maybe even yards of where your food was produced?  Basically, it’s the very simple notion of “local and in season,” which is a good basis for any cook’s work or eater’s choice.   4.         Finally, re sweating the details, as Mies van der Rohe said, “God is in the details.”  Even on a cold day like this, I’m sweatin’ em. Happy holidays, everyone.  See you all around the kitchen, now and in the new year. lb From:   Kkraditor@aapa.org Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 3:16:24 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Leslie, Thanks for putting everything into perspective (as I enjoy a New Zealand Pinot Noir from a Spiegelau glass). -kk From:   Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 3:38:02 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info         Yes, Leslie, I second Kevin’s note.  Thanks for bringing this back to food.         Also, thanks for mention of the gourmet article.  I did reference that article (just not by name), mentioning the tasting where tasting experts were duped into confusing a top notch with a bottom notch glass of wine.         Sure ‘nough, I knew as soon as I wrote that last line about sweating the details that someone wouldn’t let me get away with it.  Hah. -J From:   kent@kentcooks.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 3:59:13 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info hmmm...i thought it was estee lauder who coined the phrase “god is in the details”. From:   leslie.borden@comcast.net Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 4:32:58 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Nah, that’s “God is in the retails. . . .”  ha ha. lb   From:   leslie.borden@comcast.net Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 6:32:45 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info I know, a lot of people say that, but I looked it up once.  It really was Mies van der Rohe and it really was, “God is in the details.”  Something that’s served me well in two careers. . . . lb From:   rhoyer@adelphia.net Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 20, 2004 7:34:20 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info December 20, 2004 Leslie: Check this out ... The Devil Is In The Details An expression of the concept that many things seem straightforward on the surface, but difficulties, problems, and obstacles are later discovered while trying to implement or execute a task or plan. Also stated (somewhat paradoxically) as “God is in the details ...” It would seem that the original quote is indeed ‘’God is in the details,“ and comes from Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe. IIRC. The quote has to do with subtle small architectural design issues that once understood make certain buildings better than others. -- Ron Crocker It’s difficult to say which came first ... ”the Devil is in the details“ or ”God is in the details.“ The Rohe version is ”God dwells in the details.“ -- Mies van der Rohe (German born, American architect, 1886-1969) This may be a translation from a German original, which would make the exact wording in English slightly different. There’s reason to believe Rohe’s version came first, but in (casually) looking around for some years I haven’t yet even found an attribution for the devil version. So I agree, it’s difficult to say how old it is, and therefore difficult to know which came first. It seems to me that the two sayings are -- like God and the Devil – opposites. ”God is in the detail“ suggests fine details improving the bigger picture (see description above), ”Devil in the details“ suggests the fine details have a detrimental affect on the bigger picture. So, although linked, the two sayings actually imply oppositeconcepts, and it doesn’t really matter which came first. To see the quotation attributed to another architect, Le Corbusier, go to http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/devilisinthe.html Enough’s enough. Love food ... love wine ... love words. Hmmm, what happened to ”thou?“ RWH From:   Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 21, 2004 10:19:08 AM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info         Nice one, Dom.  Don’t know if you read the article that Leslie mentioned.  It doesn’t quite call Reidel snake oil salesman, but something close is implied.  Still, I’ve got my favorite wine glasses for different varietals.         And I work with a guy who is a German wine devotee.  When I told him that German wines are my Alaska, my final frontier, he brought me in two bottles and a special glass I had to promise to use when drinking Ausleses and Spatleses (sp?). -J From:   drwo@woteki.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 21, 2004 6:03:58 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Security: Signed         Yes, Leslie, I second Kevin’s note.  Thanks for bringing this back to food. Sorry, but was there a problem?         Also, thanks for mention of the gourmet article.  I did reference that article (just not by name), mentioning the tasting where tasting experts were duped into confusing a top notch with a bottom notch glass of wine. Here is a delightful true story concerning the influence of what’s in the glass: A well known experiment served wine in opaque glasses to experienced tasters. The tasters cold not tell the difference between red and white wines.         Sure ‘nough, I knew as soon as I wrote that last line about sweating the details that someone wouldn’t let me get away with it.  Hah. From:   drwo@woteki.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 21, 2004 6:13:41 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Security: Signed Tom,         First, I had never considered a human factor to terrior.  That’s fascinating.  Second, I do not mean to say that just because it is currently difficult to trick the effects of soil/terrior (dirt, rocks, slope) out of wine that there is no effect or that any effect is insignificant.  Quite possibly, the best argument for terrior is, the proof’s in the pudding.  This seems to be Spectator’s general conclusion as well. Proof in the pudding. Couldn’t agree more. The key is tasting, in food and in wine. Pull more corks, cook more dishes.         My immediate reaction to an all encompassing definition of terrior:  While climate is relatively stable, weather certainly is not.  Winemaking teams change, as do wine makers’ experience, as does technology and culture.  My notion of terrior is something fixed and lasting.  Or else why would France be able benchmark the word champagne? I don’t see any inconsistency. Yes, weather is transient, but related to climate. Climate is weather over the long haul. Climate is terroir.  Including culture and winemaking teams into terrior incorporates, shall we say, a certain je ne sais quoi into the equation for making good wine.   Climate is to weather as culture is to teams. Teams are transient. The culture of winemaking in Australia is very different than what it is in France, or anywhere else. Australians also eat differently than the French and so on -- which is why they treat their wines differently. And this brings me back to my original problem with soil and terrior, too often it is too arbitrary. Disagree. As Leslie so nicely points out, a sense of place -- and time and culture -- is very important in food and wine. Terroir is arbitrary perhaps in the same sense that Italy is arbitrarily different than, say, Chile. If that’s what you mean by arbitrary, so be it.         Now, I think we are on the same page with regards to the significant, yet not necessarily negative effect that the power of suggestion has on tasting wine.  There was a famous experiment where professional wine tasters were tricked into confusing wine from a Bordeaux first growth and an unclassified estate because the people leading the tasting purposely misrepresented the wines. yes, we agree on this. From:   leslie.borden@comcast.net Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 21, 2004 6:29:12 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Tom, If that’s the UC-Hastings experiment, I think it was shown to be an urban legend.  Calvin Trillin wrote an article about how he heard the tale and called the UC-Hastings oenology people.  They said, “huh?  Sounds like a cute idea, but it wasn’t us.”  Is nothing sacred anymore? lb From:   drwo@woteki.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 21, 2004 6:37:43 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Security: Signed Yes, this is what I was thinking of. I didn’t know it was apocryphal. I’m personally convinced that if performed, the experiment would yield the results I described.... So maybe we should try it sometime? T From:   leslie.borden@comcast.net Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 22, 2004 10:16:57 AM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Sounds like we have an ATK-oenology experiment in the making, here!   Ooh, and how did I confuse UC Hastings with UC Davis?  Not attention to the details, I fear.  Regarding which, I, too, have been told it’s anal.  But, y’know, sometimes it pays off.  Back when I was a commercial lawyer, when they weren’t all laughing at Christopher Columbus, they laughed at me for actually calling the telephone numbers that were listed in the company ads and press releases, when I was reading the copy for accuracy – until the day when they had a wrong number in the rollout ad for a major product line. . . . Into the home stretch on the Christmas effort today. Best to you all, keep pulling the corks and cooking the food. lb From:   Joshua_Cohn-NR@raytheon.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 22, 2004 10:58:17 AM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info       Acting on a tip, I pulled the cork... aka twisted the Stelvin on a 2003 Chehalem “INOX.”  INOX is a Chardonnay that is fermented completely in stainless vats, no oak at all.  Thus, nothing obscures the fruit.  The wine provides an interesting peek at the Chardonnay grape, in the nude.  I haven’t completely made up my mind as to whether INOX was to my liking, but it is such a curveball that anyone interested in wine should try it.         If you do try INOX, and serve it with food, think appetizers and first courses. -J From:   drwo@woteki.com Subject: Re: Contemplating rocks in our food Date: December 22, 2004 5:14:17 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Security: Signed Chardonnay in the nude!! Eek! Please, not so much excitement for the old folks. Whew! From:   drwo@woteki.com Subject: Terroir Date: December 23, 2004 3:00:09 PM EST To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Reply-To:   aroundthekitchen@aroundthekitchen.info Security: Signed For those of you not exhausted on the topic yet, here is a link to an essay on terroir that Cathie passed on to me. See her note below. Go to http://www.woteki.com then click on the “Gerald Boyd” link. For the hard core, rocks in your food types only. Tom